Thursday, March 15, 2007

Christian Zionism



I bought the book "Christian Zionism" on sale today at Mardel. It was the last or only copy. I am pretty sure this was not because it was a hot seller that has been snapped up off the shelves. I think it is on the money. Check out the site linked below for samples from the book as well as some other (in my view important) resources about this and related topics.

Salient quote:

"The term Zionism refers to a political Jewish movement for the establishment of a national homeland in Palestine for the Jews that have been dispersed. On the other hand, a Christian Zionist is a person who is more interested in helping God fulfill His prophetic plan through the physical and political Israel, rather than helping Him fulfill His evangelistic plan through the Body of Christ."

LINK:
http://www.cc-vw.org/articles/czarticles.htm

More Resources

41 comments:

Scott Starr said...

Another excerpt:
"I hold to the representative view of Israel's future, neither anti-semitic nor zionist. First, according to this position, Israel maintains a special place in the plan of God. It is greatly loved by God. Because of its unique role in the conversion of the Gentiles, it is to be evangelised, not exterminated. It is to be called back to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph, not excluded from a place in the world. It is to be cherished by the Church, the New Israel, not excoriated as a "Christ-killer": remember, the whole world crucified Christ, for above His head were written in all the major languages of Jew and Gentile: "King of the Jews." But second, the representative or covenantal view is not nationalistic. It does not believe there is magic in being a political unit, a nation. Just because Israel has become nationalized has little or nothing to do with its becoming "covenantalized"; in fact, being politicized has always stood in its way of accepting Christ as Savior and more importantly, Lord."

Scott Starr said...

...and another:

"Kenneth Leech offers this critical assessment of Christian fundamentalism and also some grounds for its evaluation.

Biblical fundamentalism has normally been accompanied by manifestations of bigotry, intolerance and violence... Fundamentalism of this kind is a serious danger to Christian spirituality as well as to the health of any community in which it is present. It is a pathological growth upon the Christian movement and calls for very serious and thoughtful responses."

Scott Starr said...

Edited from an e-mail exchange on this:

The author is a Brit (not a German). I wish the intro. to the book was on shown also. He talks about how when he was younger he started out by reading the Hal Lindsey book and completely buying in. He went to the Holy Land and had some experiences that left him with unanswered questions. He began to notice that even questioning the theology concerning this or anything that the nation-state of Israel does quickly leads to suspicions of antisemitism or disavowing the holocaust. Most folks, at the very least will react this way because of the pervasive onslaught and indoctrination of this kind of thinking. Just be open. What you read will confirm what you have believed if it is sound. Or, you might come to a different understanding. Do not be afraid of questions or afraid to question. The truth will always rise to the top if one is intellectually honest.

Most of the Zionist model the book addresses has its roots in the faulty interpretation of Revelation and/or the question of whether Christ reigns now... or is to reign after future events.

The author's basic stance is that the theology really matters and when it is wrong the results can be disastrous.... especially on this point. I know well that this work is somewhat of a challenge to many popular notions on the subject.

I have had a problem with some of the prevalent theology regarding the end times and Israel for a long time. You have seen me touch upon this subject before with my writing and come against some of the "fundamentalist" and their basic philosophy on this issue- "dispensationalism"- . This book is a thorough investigation of the roots and history of such movements.

One of the biggest tenets of the movement is this that since Christian Zionists are convinced that there will be an apocalyptic war between good and evil in the near future , there is no prospect for lasting peace between the Jews and Arabs. Indeed, to advocate that Israel compromise with Islam or co-exist with Palestinians is to oppose God and Israel in the imminent battle of Armageddon.

(from the foreword):
"The author shows that the New testament must be our guide in understanding how the Old Testament has been fulfilled for us in Christ and in judging what remains to be worked out in history. Every Christian needs to be clear about the way the Bible fits together, observing the way the inspired writers of the New Testament reveal this. But especially those who presume to tell us how the future will need to be sure that they are not misusing the Bible, and in their misguided zeal, dishonoring God. I hope that Christian Zionists that read this book will read this book and recognize that it is written by someone who believes in the inspiration and authority of Scripture as they do, and will consider carefully the challenge he brings to their particular line of interpretation."

maxx8it said...

Not everyone who is supportive of Israels right to exist is shall we say a "Truman...ist". I agree that Christiandom should not be trying to bring about the end through politics. But by supporting Israel one does not necessary set about to fulfill end times prophecy. There is a much more sane reason to protect Israel. There is a bunch of crazy idiot fundamental muslems who think they are fulfilling end time prophecy by exterminating Israel and anyone else who does not buy into their myopic view of the world and God. For every Hagee there are twenty Imams. Think about it this garbage goes both ways. Netenyaho said it best. If radical Islam or the enemies of Israel put down their arms then there would be peace. If Israel puts down its arms then Israel will cease to exist. I consider Hagee and the like to be the side show to this truth.

Scott Starr said...

Very little of what Hagee says has firm footing in Biblical truth and is part of the problem and cycle of conflict.

For more about Hagee and his movement see HERE.

Scott Starr said...

...also one cannot and should not pin the whole conflict on "Crazy Muslems (sic)". This is clearly demonstrated by the thesis of this book and is also addressed in many other posts here.

As long as the conflicts can be successfully portrayed in this way there is little hope for progress or resolution.

maxx8it said...

Im not placing it all on the crazy muslims I am just highlighting the point which you seem to avoid regarding Israel. That being the muslim world is seeking to destroy exterminate and other wise kill off all the jews. Im not down with that. Which reminds me did you see Borat? He has a great depiction of the Jews in that movie.

Scott Starr said...

There is no avoiding of that point here. It is addressed in many ways in many posts. There has been a great deal of analysis on the mechanisms that have led to the conflicts. This topic here is just one aspect of the dynamics.

If there is any ignoring going on out there in the mainstream- it is the ignoring of the role of "Christians", "Christian nations" and Zionism in these conflicts.

See Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land for instance. Or click on any of the subject tags below the posts and browse around.

I have not been interested in Borat.

Scott Starr said...

I welcome passionate discussion and debate in the comments sections of Geotheology. But, if you have a beef with a viewpoint expressed on this site, I ask that you stay focused on the issues at hand: no personal invective, no demonizing or pseudo-psychoanalyzing of those with whom you disagree, etc. This is a site for geo- theological, geo- political discussion and hence mutual learning- it is not a barroom or a playground.

Scott Starr said...

What Does All This Have to Do With Christian Faith?- Connecting the Dots

Scott Starr said...

More Articles on the subject of Zionism. I do not necessarily agree with everything here...I am just introducing it for discussion.

Scott Starr said...

Regarding censorship. I will make a deal. If you drop the pseudonym and post comments using your real name I will allow you to say anything you like. This will give any charge of "censorship" ground to stand on an will perhaps temper what you say. Either way, you own it. If you will notice- I am now using my own real name.

Scott Starr said...

regarding the quote by Netanyahu:

"If radical Islam or the enemies of Israel put down their arms then there would be peace. If Israel puts down its arms then Israel will cease to exist."

This is precisely the mentality being addressed here. It demonstrates very little faith in God and disengages from God's plan through Christ. It assumes that the Nation state is in control of its own destiny and not God. Israel largely suffers from the self sustaining cycle of violence and revenge precisely because it has participated in the cycle and has not taken seriously the methods and teachings of Christ.

Scott Starr said...

More Resources

Scott Starr said...

Dispensationalism and Christian Zionism

LINK

Scott Starr said...

Here is some more of Hagee's unapologetic Zionism and distortion of scripture right out of current headlines:

Hagee: Giant of Christian Zionism has awakened

By Stan Goodenough
Mar 15, 2007 (yesterday)

American evangelical leader John Hagee took a powerful message of support for Israel to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s 2007 policy conference in Washington DC earlier this week.

“I want to say this as clearly and as plainly as I can possibly say it,” he emphasized, his booming voice filling the auditorium.
“Israel you are not alone. There are 50 million Christians standing up and applauding the State of Israel.”

Hagee, pastor of the 18,000 member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, and founder of the newly-formed national organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI), repeatedly triggered standing ovations from the crowd.
“It’s a new day in America,” he cried.

“The sleeping giant of Christian Zionism has awakened. Millions of Christians across America consider the Jewish people the apple of God’s eye; the chosen people; a cherished people.”

These Christians, standing with America’s five million Jews on behalf of Israel, had powerful potential to shape the future and were “a match made in heaven.”

Hagee said CUFI was spreading quickly across the United States, its goal being to ensure “that Congress knows that the matter of Israel is no longer just a Jewish issue.

“It is a Christian-Jewish issue from this day forward.”
Speaking to the megalomanic rantings and actions of Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hagee said it was imperative that “we must stop Iran’s nuclear threat and stop it now.
“The only way to win a nuclear war,” he stressed, “is to make certain it never starts.”

As far as Israel and the nations were concerned, the only real truth pertaining to them was to be found in the pages of the Bible, in which God warned that He would bless those who bless Israel and curse him who curses Israel.

Those threatened judgments, Hagee said, are “very real.”
“Where are the nations that have persecuted the Jewish people,” he asked, listing Pharaoh and his army, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Ottoman Empire and “that goose-stepping lunatic Adolf Hitler and his Nazi hordes?”

All were “historic footnotes in the bone yard of human history.”
As for Israel and the Jewish people, “they are alive and well. They are thriving. They are prospering. They are growing. Even in the day of adversity they are still going forward.”
“Israel lives,” Hagee proclaimed, his voice rising and his hand stabbing the air in front of him.

“Shout it from the housetop: Israel lives! Let every Islamic terrorist group hear it: Israel lives! Let every tin horn dictator in the Middle East hear it; Israel lives! Let it be heard in the halls of the UN: Israel lives! Let it echo down the marble halls of the presidential palace in Iran: Israel lives! Let it ring in the terrorist camps of Osama bin Laden: Israel lives! Israel Lives! Israel lives!”

Answering the often-asked question of why Christians support Israel, Hagee said it was because Christians believe that they owe “a debt of gratitude” to the Jewish people.

“You gave us the Word of God. You gave us the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You gave us the prophets. [You gave us ] the first family of Christianity Mary, Joseph, and Jesus; the Apostles…
“If you take away the Jewish contribution from Christianity there would be no Christianity,” he continued. “Judaism does not need Christianity to explain its existence. But Christianity cannot explain its existence without Judaism.”

Hagee “humbly ask[ed] forgiveness of the Jewish people… for the deafening silence of Christianity in your greatest hour of need, during the Holocaust.
“We were not there. We cannot change the past. But together we can shape the future,” he said.

Ending his message, the Texan declared: “Let the word go forth from Washington DC tonight: There is a new beginning in America between Christians and Jews.

“We pledge to God and to the Jewish people to fulfill the words of the prophet Isaiah: ‘For Zion’s sake I will not hold my peace and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest. You who make mention of the Lord do not keep silent and give the LORD no rest until He makes Jerusalem the praise of all the earth.’”
---------------------------------
This is the very definition of Zionism and it is not true Christianity and is not sound scripturally. - S.S.

Scott Starr said...

Christian Zionism Exposed Blog

Scott Starr said...

"Christian Zionism is born of the conviction that God has a continuing relationship with, and covenantal purpose for, the Jewish people. This is based on an ultra-literal reading of Scripture and the conviction that Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel are being fulfilled in the contemporary State of Israel. For Christian Zionists, God’s promise to Abraham remains UNCONDITIONAL and eternal. “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates... The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God." (Genesis 15:18; 17:8)."

S. Sizer

from:

Dispesationalism and Christian Zionism

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Thanks for visiting my blog, Scott. My input on this discussion is that christianZionists pick and choose verses throughout the Old Testament but notice: They never seem to verify or tie them in with Jesus own words concerning Jerusalem.

Not only that, not Jesus nor any of the New Testament authors support christianZionism's radical support of the State of Israel.

The Israelites were removed from the land by God and without God's blessing through their obedience were promised nothing but cursing.

To this day, the Jewish religion rejects Jesus Christ who states he is the only way to God.

But, let them go...they prefer to be part of something that has no resemblance whatsoever to anything I've found in prophecy and, most especially, in Jesus' own teaching.

What can you do with them but listen to them ranting about 'God's chosen'. If they would only read Peter's writings they would find out who the 'royal priesthood, people of God' are or read Paul in Galatians 3. Instead, they would rather buy yarmulkes and rams horns and talk about Judeo-Christianity (there is no such thing in the Bible).

What really stops christianZionists is when you ask them "What is a Jew"? They have no good answer. Because, God's promises were made to Israelites...not Jews. And ONLY Israelites who obeyed God. And, as you know, they were removed from both Israel and Judah for BREAKING this covenant.

Then, Hebrews 8 clearly tells us that the new covenant (in Jesus' blood) made the old covenant obsolete.


So, christianZionists are supporting something they don't even appear to understand or have the most basic answers for such as 'What is a Jew'? I can become a Jew, so can you. We cannot become semitic.

And Paul, in Galatians 3, tells us that the promises and covenant was made to Abraham and to his 'seed' (which he explains means ONE seed..not many..and Jesus is the one seed). And ends the chapter by saying that only through Christ can those promises be accessed and that those who follow Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Scott Starr said...

I think you are on the money. I am expecting to get some traffic sooner or later that will engage and discuss on this topic. What you have experienced in your own efforts is not encouraging. however, as I stated to a friend of mine privately... most of the people I know including several in my own family and church are Zionists and yet do not know what a Zionist is let alone that they are one. so, I not only feel the unction to address this- but to do so with as much love and yet firmness as I can muster. I have intended to hit upon this topic specifically for a long time. I believe that this issue is a real key to the conflicts.....every bit as much as anything going on in Islam.

Thanks for your insight!

Scott Starr said...

Read this:

Israel's Right To Be Racist?

Scott Starr said...

We must remember that in time of war what is said on the enemy's side of the front is always propaganda, and what is said on our side of the front is truth and righteousness, the cause of humanity and a crusade for peace.

— Walter Lippmann

Scott Starr said...

Here is some good material from my secret vault of e-mail rants. The name of the gent that I was corresponding with has been removed for his privacy:

Original message:

Subject: Pastor Strangelove

Texan John Hagee may not have his "perfect red heifer" yet. But he does have a huge following, the ear of the White House -- and a theory that an invasion of Iran was foretold in the Book of Esther.

Read Pastor Strangelove article HERE.

I believe this gentleman, John Hagee to be irresponsible and dangerous.

With his kind of soothsaying and theology around, in the ears of the WHITE HOUSE for Pete's sake!, many people including some important world leaders are not even looking for solutions to the conflicts in the Middle East- they are instead gearing up for WW3 - looking forward to it in fact. Their basic message is to strike Iran before it is too late. Too late for what?
If this is really the supposed end of the world sequence then why are they warmongering in total opposition to the actual teachings of Jesus who instructs us to love our enemies, make every effort to keep the peace with our fellow man, never return evil for evil etc.? If this is really the fulfilling of the last days prophecies then why is it important for us to strike Iran first- what with the Armageddon ball already rolling and all? Is he trying to do God's job of fulfilling prophecy? Does he believe he has some part in the popular translation of Revelation and things just won't turn out the way they are supposed to if he doesn't get his message out?
Does he see himself somewhere in the symbolism of the book of Revelation?
Or is he trying to alter the outcome of these supposed prophecies with a
pre-emptive strike on Iran? Does he presume to know something that the Bible tells us that not even Christ knows- when the world will end? Is he a fundamentalist crazy on par with Osama Bin Laden? Or is he just a salesman trying to hock more videos and books?
Two things are for certain, this sort of fellow scares me to
death....and men like this one have the potential to make the onset of WW3 a self fulfilling prophecy.

For a proper interpretation of the book of Revelation see this site:
http://www.jimmcguiggan.com/revelation/home.asp

Reply:

Scott,
Nothing Hagee can say or do will have any effect on God's timing or His plan. People have been predicting an apocalyptic end of the world since Christ was resurrected. I am not a follower of Hagee, nor do I agree with most of his teachings. However, I would still prefer the Prez receive
council from someone unafraid to describe the Arabs as they are than to have a dovish Prez receiving council from Jesse Jackson. Hagee's pretty kooky, but at least he calls a spade a spade.

Back on subject... Modern day "prophets" are fooling themselves if they think they can predict the Second Coming. But...it is just as erroneous to provide your own link with the comment: "a proper interpretation of the book of Revelation tsee this site:" Who says this man has it right on
Revelation?

I did check out his site for quite a time. I agree with much of what he says. I also disagree with him on some very fundamental issues, such as whether salvation can be had and lost. I find his stance fundamentally flawed. With this said, how can I have great confidence in his
interpretation of end times prophesy? Just food for thought my bro.

Be good

My Reply to the reply:

Thanks, I am impressed that you spent some time reading the link on Revelation in that Pastor Strangelove msg. That is one thing I have always appreciated about you- your willingness to listen and think even if we do not fully agree in the end. I myself thought twice about my phrasing "proper interpretation"- but went ahead thinking that I'd just be hedging if I somehow suggested that I did not actually believe this interpretation to be correct (at least mostly). Ultimately, I agree with what you say and could have chosen a more "politically correct" - though I hate to use the term as you probably do- to get the point across. On that score- as Christians- we always have to strike a balance between calling a spade a spade as you call it- and standing up for truth...especially scriptural truth.
I have been spending a lot of time lately studying and thinking about the Biblical perspective on warfare. You have seen a fair amount of it in my e-mail forwards. Ironically, in the middle of a lengthy and spirited debate on this between myself and my good friend David Martin - he was commissioned to teach a class at church entitled "When Faith Meets Politics".
Starting out, David asserted that Jesus was a totally apolitical person....and that in fact Romans 13 instructs us to always respect and obey the government for it was put in place by God. Of course, I challenged this interpretation and use of context- asserting that this could not possibly be a blanket endorsement of all governments of all times. Romans 13 has been used to justify all sorts of bad and ungodly behavior by governments. I gave the simple example of Germany and the Nazi party as well as asking the question that if all governments were hand picked by God then how come "we" were in Iraq trying to undo God's handiwork and dethrone a leader that "God had ordained"? In the end both David and I changed our minds about some things and learned some things. I convinced him that Jesus was in fact very political although he never subscribed to any particular form of government. In life- Jesus' life no exception- everything that we do or say has some sort of political implication. Jesus was all about caring for our neighbors, our communities, our world as ourselves- in this sense everything he did was a political statement as well as an eternal one.
One of the beefs I have had with fellows like Limbaugh and Hannity as well as some less well known liberal bombthrowers- is not always their actual belief or doctrine- but the way that they demonize and condemn others. Alas, I have also been guilty of doing this in return. I am sorry if I have ever made you feel this way. Again, as Christians we are to stand for the truth- and do so in a spirit of love. This does not mean avoiding confrontation.... but to stand up for what the scriptures say is right...in truth and love. This is what is missing from the world- the raging debate between liberals and conservatives. We would all do well to remember that conservatives believe what they do because of genuine concern and the desire to defend truth and freedom...as do the liberals...in spite of the assertions that they are just crazy. I still insist that I am an independent/Christian politically- and as I have said i have also been guilty of playing the judge, condemn and blame game. In the end we are all imperfect sinners...so it does no good to condemn each other- that is not our job on this earth. Our job is to emulate Jesus. That is not a job for wimps is it? Jesus after all preached a church that was afraid to kill those who persecuted and did evil to it and not afraid to speak truth and die for it.
On that score I feel it would be in error to simply label someone like me as a weak kneed liberal woosie. You know me pretty well despite the lapse in time that we have been apart. I can safely say you understand when I say that the pacific way Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount is not in keeping with my true nature. Yet, if i want to take Jesus seriously, I can't just pretend he didn't tell me to turn away from the eye for an eye mentality and pray for my enemies rather than urge the authorities to blast them to kingdom come and condemn those who don't agree.
You said something about a person "losing their salvation" . I am pretty sure I know what you mean. I have had that discussion before with others...particularly some Baptists. I do tend to agree with the sentiment that if someone is "saved" and then continues to act in ways antithetical to Jesus' Word- then they were not actually saved after all because they did not actually repent. But, note this: Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Look at This:

Matthew 15:7-14 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

7You pretenders (hypocrites)! Admirably and truly did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said:

8These people draw near Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far away from Me.

9Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men.(A)

10And Jesus called the people to Him and said to them, Listen and grasp and comprehend this:

11It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but what comes out of the mouth; this makes a man unclean and defiles [him].

12Then the disciples came and said to Him, Do You know that the Pharisees were displeased and offended and indignant when they heard this saying?

13He answered, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be torn up by the roots.(B)

14Let them alone and disregard them; they are blind guides and teachers. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a ditch.

look at This:

Galatians 1:7-12 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

7Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [[a]with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

9As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

10Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).

11For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].

12For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

I believe these passages speak directly to someone like Pastor Hagee and anyone else who preaches satisfying our carnal desire for justice and revenge instead of what Jesus teaches.

I also understand how grace and faith works. I am often asked by my Baptist friends if I believe a person can work their way to Heaven. I often befuddle them by not answering the leading question with a yes or no and assert that salvation depends on equal parts of faith, grace and right action and quote to them this:

James 2:14-22 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)


14What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?

15If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,

16And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

17So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).

18But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

19You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man's hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!

20Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?

21Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?(A)

22You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.


So the only way the world can truly distinguish a "Christian" from being just another expression of the carnal world is by what we say and what we do....when we say and do what worldly reason says is right...are we really disciples of Jesus...or are we pretenders with good intentions whose hearts are still not changed? If our hearts are not changed- if we do not love and pray for our enemies rather than call for their destruction...are we Christians after all? This is the real war...this is the battle I fight even with myself every
day.

These are the things I am wrestling with. I always appreciate your counsel brother. Share your thoughts.

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Very interesting discussion, Scott. The link to the Revelation thing didn't work for me. I tried it yesterday as well.

Revelation is something we are now reading every day; just reading it over and over and over and over.
We read and study the Bible in a parallel fashion; starting in Genesis, then the Prophets, then the Gospels and Revelation and it's interesting how many times something we have read in the start is referred to for that day's study in the Gospels or letters! The Bible is truly amazing. Revelation hasn't been 'nailed' by anyone, in my opinion, simply because I believe that those seals were the sealing done in Daniel and will not be open but as each one happens and then we will understand it.

At any rate, you covered a number of topics. I didn't like what your friend said about 'speaking the truth about the Arabs' or close in that it sounded as if that 'truth' were negative.

The three major religions all came out of the Middle East. God chose that area and people from that area to do a number of things that have affected and still affect the world. He punished the Israelites the same way he punished those whose lands he once gave them (until they broke the covenant).
They were not given any 'out'...sin is sin regardless of who commits it, and he said they had done even more evil than those who he had driven out before them.

The Arabs get a bum rap by alot of people who say they are Christians, when God loves Arabs as much as he loves Israelite descendents, and there's MUCH mixed blood. Back to 'what is a Jew'? A Jew is anyone who practices Judaism. I can become on and so can you. Neither of us NOR THE ISRAELIS OF TODAY can become Israelites unless that is our genetics, and there are many Ashkenazi Jews who might have a very tough time in that regard of proving a thing as to lineage to the twelve tribes.

Eternal security is a doctrine I was raised in from the Conservative Baptist upbringing I was born into, but the more I studied, the more I came to believe that salvation is conditional and is a process. It is possible to fall away or the Bible wouldn't talk about the dangers of falling away. Remember the stern warning by Paul? And remember the warning about the natural branches and the grafted in branches, and that we shouldn't begin to boast because we were in the position of standing by faith?

'Easy Christianity' is the way most are raised to believe. Once saved/always saved. But most, in my opinion, have a half-baked understanding of what 'saved' even is. Jesus didn't make discipelship easy, and you have pointed out many examples.

Not believing in once saved/always saved under ANY condition is not tantamount to believe that we can 'lose our salvation' over any and every little sin/thing. No way. I've heard the flakiest exposes on the verse "if they fall away to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame". One such expose was that it was talking about unbelievers. Hello?

Well, not to get into that right now: Christians are not behaving like Christians when they discriminate as to race, religion, gender or even sin. The old 'sin-o-meter' is another favorite of mine. The 500 lb. preacher who condemns the alcoholic. The evangelist married 3 times who is screaming about the prostitute or the drug addict.

The sad truth is that President Bush and so many Christians of today have absolutely butchered Jesus message of love and forgiveness, caused hate, fear, and prejudice against those Jesus loves and should be incredibly ashamed of what they have done to the message of Jesus.

Think about the parable of the seed and the sower. The only 'saved' ones (in my way of looking at this) were the ones who produced multiples of good fruit.

Scott Starr said...

Here is the working link for McGuiggan on Revelation

Scott Starr said...

What I would like to say about the varying interpretations of Revelation is this: What we believe one way or the other is not a salvation issue unless we let the anxiousness and fear about the end times sway us away from what Christ has mandated for us as a model of behavior. In my other post about Sermons on Peacemaking there is a link that will take you to some audio- filed sermons. The first one at the top discusses the aspect of theology, discipleship and peacemaking (the duty of all Christians) that we are discussing here. The model is as follows:

Romans 12:14-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[a] Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[b]says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[c] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Footnotes:

1. Romans 12:16 Or willing to do menial work
2. Romans 12:19 Deut. 32:35
3. Romans 12:20 Prov. 25:21,22

On this point- the 'gospel' being preached by Hagee and other Zionists is clearly out of sync.

So no matter how you think the end times will go down- our task is to follow this model behavior as laid out in Romans 12 even until the end. The reason I have brought up this interpretation of Revelation is because I have seen the pre-millennial view twisted into a ministry of fear that has more often than not prevented any real efforts towards a lasting peace in the Middle East. When one believes that peace will never be- its awfully hard to do things necessary to obtain it. This of course brings up the question that if we do not believe there will ever be peace over there- why in the wide, wide world of sports are "we" over there trying to install a democracy and make peace? I would like to think its because the leaders of our country don't really believe we can't have peace. My discernment tells me its something else. The Bible tells us that the Kings of this world are concerned with only power and luxury. This means that "we" may be over there for the oldest of reasons to go to war...for power and control. If so, the Kings of this age are lying to us. I think there is ample evidence to show that we are not just fighting over there for truth and justice and the American way..although I do not doubt the nobility of the bulk of our military servicemen.

To clarify my position on that, lest I ramble, visit my post where Senator Coburn and I "discuss" the war in Iraq.

Anyhow, none of us really knows how the full and true meaning of Revelation... anyone who says they do thinks an awful lot of their ability to decipher the fitful dreams of disheveled and God intoxicated mystics holed up in salt caves. Ultimately it should not matter. Our job as Christians is to be ready for whatever happens- yea, to be ready to die- all the while exhibiting the model behavior exemplified by Christ and written about in Romans chapter 12.

Scott Starr said...

p.s.

CZE, I think you observations are again very astute. You know a lot more about the history of Israel, Jews and Judaism than I do. Please offer more insight as you see fit.

Scott Starr said...

Read This: The Zionist Ideology of Domination Versus the Reign of God

The Ultimate Triumph Of Justice And Love

by Naim Ateek


excerpt:
" I shall not fear anyone on earth.
I shall fear only God.
I shall not bear ill will toward anyone.
I shall not submit to injustice from anyone.
I shall conquer untruth by truth.
And in resisting untruth I shall put up with all suffering."
(The Treasure Chest, Harper & Row, 1965, p. 73)

ChristianZionismExposed said...

http://canarislander.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/how-a-religion-is-conceived-and-how-it-can-be-exploited/

Scott, you might enjoy this blog an online acquaintance of mine is doing. Your interests might fit well here. There are people from several parts of the world and religion/no religion backgrounds but at least they are all willing to think.

This topic brought about some strife, as it often does.

Scott Starr said...

CZE, I have visited that site and poked around some. it is indeed a pretty interesting conversation. I have not commented yet. I am still contemplating. I have also been passionate about a few other posts I have made recently. I wanted to ask something. I ran across this verse today:

Romans 11:25-32 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [a]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.(A)

27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.(B)

28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,

31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you--through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].

32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].

Footnotes:

1. Romans 11:25 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.


Cross references:

1. Romans 11:26 : Isa 59:20, 21
2. Romans 11:27 : Isa 27:9; Jer 31:33


What is your opinion on this verse. I will assume in your discourse on this that this verse has been presented to you. Taken contextually with the rest of the New Testament and/or writings of Paul...it cannot mean that Israel can and will be saved simply by virtue of being Israelites or Jews.

I believe that it means that they will have the opportunity of salvation through Christ as the Deliverer from Zion. I still believe as you have said that the salvation offered to Israel was not unconditional. What sayeth thee?

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Scott, I'm sorry it took me this long; I've been doing so many other things than blogging and posting and just saw this.

That is an interesting passage and needs to be taken in context with everything else Scripture has to say on the subject.

As you know, many people like to pick here and there at the Bible, like a buffet table, when it's meant to be a many course meal and taken in a logical manner with the 'appetizers first and the dessert last' so to speak. In other words, there is a cohesive message from Genesis to Revelation but many read the Bible as if it was chopped into little pieces, thrown into the air, and we put it back together like some giant jigsaw puzzle.

But..before I even comment on that scripture, let's first say we have to know who is being spoken of, and, as I see it, it would be genetic Israelites, since he talks about the forefathers. Therefore, would that mean that converts to Judaism were excluded from these verses? I've never seen a christianZionist who could answer that question without shuffling from one foot to the other, figuratively speaking.

But, assuming that it even meant anyone at all who either converted to Judaism, would it mean genetic descendents of the forefathers who were atheists? Is an atheist Israelite a Jew or not? That's also a sticky wicket for the christianZionists.

So, let's assume that it just includes both groups and any and all crossovers/morphs of the above.

hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [a]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.(A)

27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.(B)



When Paul wrote Romans, Christianity was in its' early days and Jews were opposing the Gospel. The Gospel was 'new news', not 'old news' as it is today, so to speak.

Paul always held out hope that the Israelites would someday come to Christ and yet, whenever any hint of 'Judaizers' came into the church, he furiously opposed it; it seemed to be his pet peeve.

His message was ALWAYS faith as opposed to inheritance or law, that we were one only in Christ and that in Christ there was no Jew or Gentile, and that the promises made to Abraham and his seed (meaning one, Paul, said, who was Christ, not many 'as of seeds')
were accessed only through Christ.

In the light and evidence of all Paul's writings, I believe this clearly states that the Israelites were loved by God but the only covenant and the only salvation for them was through Christ.

We have to remember the point in history Paul wrote this. He saw a time when the hardening would be removed and they too would become part of the body of Christ.



30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,

31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you--through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].




Their disobedience and breaking of the covenant resulted in the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, which opened the way of salvation to the Gentiles. Paul says someday, the Christian Gentiles will become the instrument God uses to extend the message of mercy and salvation through Christ to them.


Do I believe, as some christianZionists and Christians period, do that this passage means that someday 'ALL Jews/Israelites/Israel will be saved' by blanket forgiveness 'as a nation' to them by God? Absolutely not. I believe that is anti all the teaching of the Bible and Paul, specifically. Salvation is only taught as an individual choice and through Jesus Christ and acknowledgement of his death and resurrection, Lordship and atonement for our sins.


Maybe we'll go deeper into the whole 'replacement theology' issue as this is now the 'insulting buzzword' regarding people who believe as I do.

Any 'covenant' other than the covenant in Jesus' blood as a means of salvation, to me, is heresy. I also believe it's heresy to teach that any group has any preference from God in terms of right-standing with him by any other means than through Jesus Christ.

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Scott, I'd like to suggest that you check out the actual meanings as you read the Bible, if you have a Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic concordance or dictionaries. It's amazing how AWFUL the translation of some words and thoughts are when you check on them. The translators were men with their own slant on things, so when something seems 'deep' or a bit 'off' to me or I just want to 'double-check' what is actually meant or being said, it's a good exercise.

Galaitnas 4:21 through the end of the chapter is one of my favorite passages from Paul, where he talks about Hagar and Sarah. If you read and study it, you will see how the Israelites went from being the children of the freewoman to the children of the slavewoman.
I actually use objects to illustrate both women and they are moved partway through to juxtaposition at verse 24, where Hagar's children become the Israelites, 'one covenant is from Mt. Sinai and bears children WHO ARE TO BE SLAVES. Vs 26 talks about Christians who are part of the Jew Jerusalem ('the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is OUR mother')

Also, study Galatians 3:15 through the end of the chapter, where Paul explains who the covenant and promises were really given to (Abraham and his 'seed'/Christ).


Also, note that the 12 tribes in Revelation are missing Dan and Joseph's name has been substituted for Ephraim, and yet Manasseh remains. So...what about the ORIGINAL twelve tribes? Are genetic descendents of Dan 'out' and not included in the scriptures you give if we interpret them the way christianZionists do?

And who are those in Revelation in the church of Smyrna and the church of Philadelphia who Jesus says "those who say they are Jews but they are not..they are the synagogue of Satan'?

And what about the same Paul who wrote Romans saying in his letter to the Thessalonians:
I Thessalonians 2:14: For you brothrers became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own contrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way, they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

It's amazing to me that people who call themselves Christians can believe that a country who is hostile to the message of Jesus and rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can be blessed of God.

If being a Jew is superior and makes one the apple of God's eye and His chosen.....why not convert??? Anyone can.

Peter talks about the chosen in I Peter 2. First he tells how those who do not believe have stumbled over Jesus because they disobey the message...'vs 8 'which is what they were DESTINED for." but

vs 9: (to you who believe vs 7)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God..."


If christianZionists believe or make Jews believe that SOMEDAY God will lift a veil from their hearts and then the whole 'jewish nation' will suddenly 'be saved'.....they are possibly condemning them by not sharing the TRUTH that Jesus clearly gave:
"I am the way, the truth and the Life..NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME."

If 'someday' the 'veil will be lifted' and 'someday' 'all Israel will be saved'...what about all the millions of Jews who died before that 'sometime/someday'????

Does it even make sense that God would allow millions of Jews to die because Christians told tham that they were A-okay until God 'lifted the veil'?????

That's cruel.

ChristianZionismExposed said...

And please excuse my typos; 'Jew Jerusalem' is New Jerusalem, etc.

Blush. Rush...rush...rush.

This is a GREAT subject because I was raised in christianZionism teaching and see the horrendous pain it causes to so many people.
It underwrites war, killing, with scarcely a thought. All the State of Modern Israel does is fine with the christianZionist, seemingly as long as that involves tormenting Palestinians and/or other Arabs or Muslims of any race.

It is, from my background and personal experience with it, a cold-hearted, unfeeling, sadistic and cruel way of looking at Scripture and the world.

ChristianZionismExposed said...

One more thing: Did you read the letters from christianZionists to the 'people of Israel'?

Check my blog:
http://christianzionismexposed.blogspot.com/

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Sorry to be taking up so much space today, but here is a past blog of mine that relates to this topic (many do, actually). I'm not sure you have read it:


So, was Jesus a 'christian Zionist'?
First, what is a christian Zionist? On the Challenging Christian Zionism site, Donald Wagner defines it as follows:
http://www.christianzionism.org/default.asp

Briefly stated, Christian Zionism is a movement within Protestant fundamentalism that understands the modern state of the country-region Israel as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and thus deserving of political, financial, and religious support.



Rather than go into a John Hagee 'charts and graphs' presentation, skip-hopping from Ezekiel to Zechariah to Daniel to Revelation and back again, 'interpreting' prophecy in questionable ways that tend more to opinion than logic, I prefer to look at how Jesus treated the subject.



Jesus treated the subject of 'the return of the Jews to Israel' as nonexistant. Nowhere in any of Jesus' teachings can one find the kind of circuitous journey through Old Covenant prophecy that is to be found in the teachings, books and media presentations of present day christian Zionist leaders. We have shown in previous installments here that christian Zionists continue to mix up terminology and use the terms Jew, Israelite and Israeli as if they are one and the same which, of course, they often are not.

Going with the christian Zionism flow, however, that 'the Jews' equal Israelites and that God promised them 'the land', let's see how Jesus spoke to Jews of his day; in particular the Jewish religious leaders of his day: The Pharisees, the Sadducees, the elders, the teachers of the law.



These folk (religious leaders) enjoyed following Jesus around and asking him ridiculous questions (Matthew 22:23), accusing him of working with and being possessed by Satan/Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:22) , asking him for signs from heaven (Matthew 16:1) and thinking of ways to kill him (Matthew 26:3). These are a few references of many.

Jesus, for his part, had the following to say to them:
Matthew chapter 23. Highlights:
"(They) sit in Moses' seat (the Old Covenant was still in effect until Jesus fulfilled it), so you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. ..Everything they do is done for men to see....Woe to you..you hypocrites!....Woe to you, blind guides!....You snakes! You brood of vipers!...Upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth..."



Well, surely Jesus must have thought that the people of the Jewish religion were 'chosen'? After all, some of them were direct descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel)!! Surely genetics and religion must have given them special privileges and a claim to certain rights!! The christian Zionist leaders use that as the basis of their doctrine regarding end times. Didn't Jesus teach the same things? Let's see:

In Matthew 3:7, we read this about Jesus' feelings on the subject of genetic privilege:
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them:
"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?...And do not think you can say to yourselves 'We have Abraham as our father'. I tell you that OUT OF THESE STONES God can raise up children for Abraham.""



Some of the Jews of his day believed Jesus. Surely they had special privileges because they were Jews..special privileges because these Jews were genetic Israelites? Let's see:

John 8:31 says: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said:
'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'
They answered him: 'WE ARE ABRAHAM'S DESCENDENTS AND HAVE NEVER BEEN SLAVES OF ANYONE. (Apparently forgetting the 400 year stint in Egypt.) How can you say that we shall be set free?'
Jesus replied: .....vs. 37: I know you are Abraham's descendents. Yet you are ready to kill me because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence and you do what you have heard from YOUR FATHER.'
'ABRAHAM is OUR father', they answered.
'If you were Abraham's children', said Jesus, 'then you would do the things Abraham did.....vs. 44: 'You belong to your father, the devil..."

At which point they accused him of being a demon-possessed Samaritan.

(Note that Jesus admitted these Jews were Abraham's descendents but not Abraham's CHILDREN. In later installments, we will find out who Abraham's true children are.)




Let's remember, however, that Jesus' apostles were Jews and that he was sent first to the Jews with his message of the New Covenant, and that many Jews of his day truly did convert from the Old Covenant Judaism to become New Covenant followers of Jesus Christ. This is not a 'hate Jews,Israelites or Israelis' blog. This is a 'let's get the real story straight' blog.




The real story is that Jesus himself gave no credence or favor to genetic links to Abraham but rather to a repentant and pure heart and the characteristics he blessed in the discourse known as the Sermon on the Mount (also known as the Beatitudes), recorded in Matthew 5.



But what about the Arabs/Muslims/Persians/Gentiles/non-Israelis?

The christian Zionists tell us that they are the enemies of the Jews, many are followers of that dangerous terrorist religious mindset...someone we need to fear and kill in wars before they kill us, that they want to die to gain their quota of virgins in the afterlife. Surely Jesus must have felt the same. After all, christian Zionists tell us they are followers of the teachings of Jesus.



Let's see how Jesus responded to a Samaritan woman (remember, he was accused of being a 'demon-possessed Samaritan by a group of Jews). The story of Jesus' encounter with her is a good example of how he responded to those of other races or religions. It's found in John 4:17.


You can read it for yourself, but to sum up the story: Jesus broke tradition by speaking with someone who was not a Jew (specifically, a Gentile woman) as he began a conversation at a public well with her. He began to tell her all about herself, and offered her the 'living water' he had to give...salvation and spiritual 'water of life'.

She was amazed that 1) he would talk with her at all ("You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman." --For Jews to not associate with Samaritans--verse 9) and that 2) Jesus knew she had been married numerous times and was currently sexually involved with a man she was not married to, scandalous in that time, and yet was not worried about being seen with her and cared enough about her spiritual life to interact with her.

In fact, she was so stunned that she changed the subject:
"Sir, I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshipped on this mountain but you Jews claim the place we must worship is in Jerusalem".



BINGO!!! Here is the PERFECT place for Jesus to prove he's a good christian Zionist by pulling out the 'charts and graphs' and explaining to the poor Gentile sinner that the Jews are 'chosen', that Jerusalem is the Zionist center of the universe, and that, in the end times, Jews will return to 'their land' and bring in his own second coming!!! What a lead-in---what an opportunity to set us all straight!


His response, verse 21:
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain NOR IN JERUSALEM.....a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS will worship the father IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth."


***************


So, we have covered the topic in an abbreviated, but quite thorough, way in such a short space.
To conclude:

Was Jesus a 'christian Zionist'?
No.
Would Jesus have been accused of anti-semitism?
Yes.
Would he have been called a 'self-hating Jew'?
Most likely.
Would he be advocating war on Arabs in order to 'fulfill prophecy'?
Absolutely not. Wait, you say. How do you know that?

Quite simply, from his own words. Neither Arabs nor Muslims are the enemy of Christians, nor were they the enemy of Jesus, as one example above clearly shows. There are others as well, where Jesus tells stories of godly conduct using Samaritans/Gentiles rather than Jews as examples, although he mentions Jews in these stories who did not take the opportunity for good deeds:
Luke 10:33, Luke 17:16.




Let's take the christian Zionist (and American and Israeli government) slant, however, for a moment and assume that Muslims/Arabs are 'the enemy' and 'just out to get us'. Jesus would surely then be advocating war to protect ourselves from them?


Now we've finally got Jesus cornered, don't we? He's going to be logical when it comes to self-defense and protecting ourselves as Christians, so say the christian Zionists about killing Muslims/Arabs to protect this so-called 'christian' nation of America and, most especially, God's 'chosen people and land' (aka Jews and Israel)!! Surely there's an 'out' for christian Zionists to back up their support for and promotion of war on Islam/Muslims/Arabs scripturally??

No.

Jesus said:
"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:44
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you and pray for those who mistreat you." Luke 6:27
"Love your enemies, do good to them and lend to them without expecting to get anything back."
Luke 6:35


Darn.


Couldn't Jesus just ONCE have said that Jews and/or Israelites were the chosen ones, that they had a separate covenant, that in the end times they would be brought back into the land of Israel, form a state and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ? Couldn't he have just put SOME importance on being children of Abraham, for those Jews who are? Couldn't he have cursed his enemies and said to protect ourselves and the Israelis from them? Couldn't he have quoted some prophecy on that and then interpreted it to mean what the christian Zionists say it does?


Guess not.


It appears that the message of Jesus had to do with spiritual things, not natural/physical things. It appears that Jesus loved everyone enough to die for them and give his life as a ransom and salvation and eternal life....and he did it for not only Jews but Gentiles.

Jesus loved everyone (although the religious leaders of his day aroused him to anger and, most likely, would again today if he were on this earth) and told his followers to do the same.

If they don't, perhaps they are not really his followers.

Think about it.

Do you want to follow Jesus or do you want to follow the religious leaders of this day who advocate 'genetic privilege', religious privilege and war....wrongfully....in his name?
http://christianzionismexposed.blogspot.com/2006/08/so-was-jesus-christian-zionist.html

Scott Starr said...

Wow, thanks for the contributions on this. I have been out of town and am a bit slow responding. Don't be self conscious about posting in great volume here. That is exactly what I am looking for. I have yet to see anything to disagree with in your words.

Thanks.

christianzionismexposed said...

Scott, I don't know if you got to read the article, 'myth of Judeo-Christianity' yet but I hope you get a chance.

Remember both John (the Baptist) and Jesus' attitude toward genetics? "God is able to raise up from these stones children for Abraham".

That's good enough for me.

Scott Starr said...

Yes, I did read the article and it had a lot to do with that WOW.

Scott Starr said...

Right now we have most overtly religious government in a lifetime and simultaneously the most corrupt and violent - Is this a coincidence- or is there something terribly, terribly wrong with the way "religion" is used to validate human power structures and proliferate astronomical military budgets?

"“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.” - Helder Camara, Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Brazil (1909-1999)

In spite of the track record of the "Godly"- the conventional belief is that religion is the source of ethics and conscience for humanity.

However, It sometimes seems that the main preoccupation of the flagrantly devout is the conduct of other people's sexual activities.... the logic seems to be that you can lie, murder, steal,torture,pollute and loot the taxpayer as long as you attend church- don't have extramarital sex and aren't gay and like to wave the flag and support Israel no matter what they do- then you're a-ok.

ChristianZionismExposed said...

Great summary, Scott. Sad, isn't it? Hopefully people like us will stand up within our own 'ranks' but then..they won't listen, will they? Jesus 'called' people on false spirituality and they hated him for it.

You are a breath of fresh air.

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