Saturday, September 01, 2007

Quantum Contemplations: Dialog Echoing In Eternity

I have decided to post some of the e-mails from the voluminous, dusty archives of the ongoing conversation between D.S. Martin and other friends and myself. Here is the next installment of: Quantum Contemplations: Dialog Fluctuating In Eternity

From: Scott Starr To: D.S. Martin Date: Fri, 26
May 2006 08:23:06 -0500

Well, I have gone fishing about every night this week. I have found some prime locations all right in or real close to the city. I had great luck yesterday in a dirty flood control pond off of Meridian and I-40- back behind the Waffle house. I am going camping this weekend out at an awesome lake I found near Geary an hour to the west. We need to get together and catch some....and finish figuring out the cosmos.

have decided to post some of the e-mails from the volumoinous, dusty archives of the ongoing conversation between D.S. Martin and myself. Here is the next installment.

From: Scott Starr To: D.S. Martin Date: Fri, 26
May 2006 08:23:06 -0500

Well, I have gone fishing about every night this week. I have found some prime locations all right in or real close to the city. I had great luck yesterday in a dirty flood control pond off of Meridian and I-40- back behind the Waffle house. I am going camping this weekend out at an awesome lake I found near Geary an hour to the west. We need to get together and catch some....and finish figuring out the cosmos.

>From: "D. S. Martin"
> >To: "Scott Starr"
> >Subject: RE:
> >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:32:53 -0500
> >
> >Yeah. I have missed the give-n-take.
> >
> >I'm sure that you haven't had time to see the Elegant Universe...or maybe
> >you did, at that prime fishing hole behind the waffle house.
> >
> >But, the first hour of the series talks about Albert Einstein's desire to
> >find the "Theory of Everything" or the Grand Unification Theory. One of
> >the scientists stated that Einstein wanted to, and believed that he truly
> >could, "know the mind of God" and that was the essence of his desire.
> >
> >The reason that this series is so important to me is the "String Theory".
> >This may be a philosophy more than a theory.
> >But, if it can be proven, or more accurately "Not disproven", then this
> >allows for the likelihood that reality is made up of more than the 3
> >dimensional, or 4 dimensional if you include 'Time' (I believe you must
> >include time), universe that we perceive.
> >
> >Under String Theory there is the possibility of up to 16 separate
> >dimensions.
> >
> >I cannot even begin to imagine what a "Fifth dimension" might look like.
> >It's like describing a symphony to someone who has never heard sound.
> >
> >If I were living 2,000 years ago and were to describe a God who lived and
> >operated outside of our space/time dimension. I might very well use the
> >same terms that are used in the bible. The "Carnal" would be space/time
> >oriented and spiritual would be oriented in the higher dimensions of
> >'String Theory'.
> >
> >Remember, you asked me if I thought that satan was limited to space/time
> >like we are. My answer was devolved from Job 1 and Lk 22:31. There, it
> >appears that satan is limited by space/time, in his dealings with the
> >creation. However, I also perceive that he is not flesh and blood. Paul
> >even goes so far as to warn the Ephesians,
> >
> >
> >Eph.6:12, 'For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against
> >the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this
> >present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly
> >places.'
> >So, under the idea of 'String Theory' we have the current universe
> >operating in space/time, but we also have higher levels of reality or
> >dimensions, continuing all the way up to the highest (sixteenth) level.
> >
> >This allows for faith, science, God, satan, angels, cherubim, seraphim,
> >many other unnamed & un-described beings living in dimensions somewhere
> >above us and yet somewhere beneath God.
> >Satan is obviously in a higher dimension than we are and yet he is just as
> >obviously somewhere beneath the dimension of God.
> >
> >String Theory may not make any spiritual claims de facto, but the
> >implications of 16 distinct dimensions are obvious to anyone, who may be
> >trying to make sense of the place and realm of mankind, satan, and God
> >(Yahweh).
> >
> >Consider also how we are forced to describe these "Higher" levels of
> >reality.
> >If I were to exist in one of those "Higher" levels of reality and the
> >Creator were to show deep love and devotion to some of the little peons
> >down in in the simple space/time dimension, I may just get a little peeved.
> > I may want to extract a "pound of flesh."
> >
> >There are so many things that make sense if "String Theory" is found to be
> >true.
> >
> >DSM
> >
> >p.s. I'm still hacking away at the Cosmos.
> >p.p.s. This idea of the 'String Theory' also, not unexpectedly, flies in
> >the face of one of my other beliefs however. Under this theory,
> >mathematics, through a series of formulae, is able to answer all questions
> >about the seen and unseen universe.
> >I don't like that. Ugh!

> From:
> To:
> Subject: RE:
> Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:28:02 -0500
> Do you remember the old lesson about how it is mathematically impossible
> for a bee to fly?
> i was also discussing stuff along these lines the other day...and I was
> discussing some thoughts I had about the idea of an infinite universe. It
> was, ' I have never understood the idea of infinite space...I mean it would
> seem like space would still be expanding since it would never have reached a
> limit...there must be an edge or an envelope out there somewhere that is
> still moving outward...therefore space is in some sense finite.
> When i was at Waco I did an internship at the PBS station at Baylor.
> There was a nationwide lecturship series that was going to tour and put the
> finest minds of theology together with the finest minds of science. I was
> assigned to go and video tape the opening week of the dialogue...the series
> was launching from Baylor. The last day was a Friday and most of the
> students that had been attending as part of their classes were no longer
> required to the attendance dropped from about 700 to about 175.
> At the end they were going to take questions. They had people write their
> questions on slips of paper and put them in baskets. They were going to
> select five questions. I myself put in like five questions of my own. It
> is still a point of pride for me that three out of the five questions they
> selected to have the panel answer came from me..the humble camera man. I
> still remeber the moderator saying on my third question," And for our last
> item today, we have another really excellent question!..."
> I don't recall all of my questions but I still remember two:
> 1. Science has recently made some discoveries regarding serotonin and
> how it can produce religious type...or even hallucinogenic effects when it
> is released within the brain ( from things like meditation, fasting, sleep
> deprivation, stress etc.) , some scientists have even contended that
> serotonin is responsible for the advent of all spiritual and religious
> thought and insight, has theology come up with an answer or answers to these
> contentions?
> 2. For many years the "Big Bang Theory" has been the prevailing theory
> about the beginning of
> the cosmos...even theology has kind of hithced their wagon to the "Big Bang
> Theory", saying, "OK who or what do you think caused the Big Bang but God?"
> Under this theory the universe was thought to be 12 to 14 billion years old
> and still expanding outward uniformly. When the Hubble telescope was
> recently brought online science discovered that sections of the universe
> appear to be 16 to 20 billion years old...and moving in other
> directions. What have these discoveries done to and what do they imply for
> both science and theology?
> On the second question I was fishing for the answer, " It means that
> none of us really know what the heck is going on."
> Of course none of them were about to make such an admission. To this
> day this "anomoaly"has not been resolved...or talked about much. Science
> will never admit that they have no idea and theology resigns even asking the
> questions to "an issue of faith".
> The third question had something to do with time and relativity - the theory
> being if you could exceed lightspeed time would cease to exist...and since
> we cannot explain anything without the measuring rods of
> science or theology prepared or working on anything that could explain
> reality sans what we know as the timespace continuum as a point of
> reference. The answer was that some theories were being worked
> out...concerning black holes,,,string theories etc...but ultimately though
> time is restricted to our physical cannot be discarded...blah
> blah blah...
> more later..I am home from my camping expedition with a few pounds of fish
> filets and a sunburn.

From DSM,

Here it is, if your interested in the relative age of the universe.

A quick approximation for the age of the Universe can be approximated by the inverse of the Hubble constant. The calculated age turns out to be

IAge of Universe as inverse Hubble constant

Current best estimates of h0 are

Range of observed Hubble parameter

so the Universe is most likely somewhere between 12 and 16 billion years old, at least according to this method of estimation.
But recall that according to relativity, time is relative. We can guess the amount of time likely to have elapsed since the time when time was a meaningful quantity that could be measured. But we can't say anything about any processes that might have occurred before the notion of time made sense. In some sense, quantum gravity could be an eternal stage of the Universe, and the Big Bang could be regarded as the end of eternity and the beginning of time itself.

I like the end of eternity analysis.

But, it seems to me, it would only be the end of eternity for those of us who, may happen to be stuck in this quaint little space/time universe.

However, for the rest of us who exist, only temporarily in this temporally composed training facility, i.e. the Universe, we see eternity as still existing outside the bounds of this tiny, but ever increasing sphere.

Which leads to the question, can space eventually exceed or overtake eternity?

How much eternity exists beyond the bounds of space?

Is there a limited eternity, (maybe only 25 miles of eternity, that would certainly affect the effect of the title of the movie classic "From Here to Eternity", kind of like "From here to Shawnee" or to keep it in tropical paridise "From Peral Harbor to Waimea Bay)?

Or is eternity always just beyond the reaches of space/time, (and well, we might say eternal and infinite)?

Scientists, often naively limit reality to only what is thought to be knowable, or at least may be tested by empirical (carnal) tests.


From S. Starr:

Subject: 5th dimension?
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 09:24:16 -0500

The old Seminole medicine worker told me there are actually nine dimensions that are known of by men (by spiritual means). I have never heard science address the theory of more than five. I kinda think that in an infinite or eternal reality there may actually be an infinite number of dimensions and/or planes of existence...If one believes in an eternal God beyond the bounds of the stream of time and space one has to allow for such a possibility.

more reading:

From my Father H.Starr, Jr.

I looked up some Bible reference for you to ponder, There are numerous verses that mention the heavens and this isn't all just a few, Acts 2: 34, Ephesians 4: 10, Heb 4: 23, and several in 2 Peter begining at 2 Pet. 3: 10, and finally one that reads third heaven 2 Cor. 12: 2. Again it could mean sometining totally different but it does give reason to ponder.

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

Ephesians 4:10
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Hebrews 4:12-14
12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

2nd Peter 3: 10-17

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


1. 2 Peter 3:10 Some manuscripts be burned up
2. 2 Peter 3:12 Or as you wait eagerly for the day of God to come

1 comment:

aaron said...

i was watching the science channel or discovery and it was concerning digitizing human nerve/brain impulse. it had a gentleman that was rendered quadrapalegic who was offered a brain/computer interface surgery which he accepted. in weeks he was able to 'think' the cursor on the computer screen to do vairous tasks on the computer as well as draw pictures etc. they then began speculating on the actual physics and perception of time and space and how it would change once we are able to, despite our mortal self dieing or having already died, upload our conciousness onto the hardrive of a future computer that would have the space and capabilities to run 'us'-the program. This is one of my most thrilling thoughts personally but it was even more exhiting hearing real speculations and implications on what was once our human perception and how it would change. They gave the example of you watching as a glass of water was accidentally knocked off of the table and how it might take 1.5 seconds for you to see this happen and percieve it as a human. they then speculated that 'you' the computer you- having processing power far faster and greater than your old human machine would (the explaination of this is vague to me now but basically if your conciousness was to fit and opperate in a computer in the future, the processing power by definition would be almost unfathomable to us now) and that the event that your human brain filtered as about a second and a half would now take about 7 minutes to fully occur due to the speed at which you were processing it. much as time 'stands still' at the speed of light etc. it brought me to memories of my childhood brain and confirmed this speculation for me, as i remembered what it was to be a child with my cracker jack skull of mush, whizzing along inside at such a rate that summer lasted forever and two-week relationships were long matured and being grounded seemed to take a life time to end. and now that our brains get older and slower, the years tick by like seconds on a clock almost. something one of you said about time and its perception got me to this topic.